1 1 2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 4 UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC.; ) 5 PARAMOUNT PICTURES CORPORATION; ) METRO-GOLDWYN-MAYER, INC.; TRISTAR ) 6 PICTURES, INC.; COLUMBIA PICTURES ) INDUSTRIES, INC.; TIME WARNER ) 7 ENTERTAINMENT CO., L.P.; DISNEY ) EMTERPRISES, INC.; AND TWENTIETH ) 8 CENTURY FOX FILM CORPORATON, ) ) 9 ) PlaintiffS, )00 Civ. 277 10 )(LAK)(RLE) vs. ) 11 ) SHAWN C. REIMERDES; ERIC CORLEY ) 12 A/K/A "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN"; ) ROMAN KAZAN; AND 2600 ) 13 ENTERPRISES, INC. ) ) 14 Defendant. ) ------------------------------------) 15 16 17 DEPOSITION OF EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN 18 New York, New York 19 Tuesday, June 27, 2000 20 21 22 23 24 Reported by: Thomas R. Nichols, RPR 25 JOB NO. 110287 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 June 27, 2000 7 10:20 a.m. 8 9 Deposition of EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN, 10 held at the offices of Proskauer Rose LLP, 11 1585 Broadway, New York, New York, pursuant 12 to Notice, before Thomas R. Nichols, a 13 Registered Professional Reporter and a 14 Notary Public of the State of New York. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S: 3 4 PROSKAUER ROSE LLP 5 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 6 1585 Broadway 7 New York, New York 10036-8299 8 BY: LEON GOLD, ESQ. 9 CARLA M. MILLER, ESQ. 10 11 12 FRANKFURT GARBUS KLEIN & SELZ, PC 13 Attorneys for Defendants 14 488 Madison Avenue 15 New York, New York 10022 16 BY: MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ. 17 EDWARD HERNSTADT, ESQ. 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 MARK D. LITVACK, ESQ. 21 JESSICA FREIHEIT 22 RUBEN MARTINEZ, THE VIDEOGRAPHER 23 24 25 4 1 Proceedings 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape 3 number one of the videotape deposition of 4 Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein in the matter 5 Universal City Studios, Inc. et al., 6 plaintiffs, versus Shawn C. Reimerdes, et 7 al., defendants, in the United States 8 District Court, Southern District of 9 New York, Number 00 Civ 277(LAK)(RLE). 10 This deposition is being held at 1585 11 Broadway on June 27, 2000, at approximately 12 10:20 a.m. My name is Ruben Martinez from 13 the firm of Esquire Video Services. The 14 court reporter is Mr. Tom Nichols in 15 association with Esquire Deposition 16 Services. 17 Will the counsels please introduce 18 themselves. 19 MR. GOLD: My name is Leon Gold. I am 20 with Proskauer Rose, counsel to the 21 plaintiffs. 22 MS. MILLER: Carla Miller with 23 Proskauer Rose, counsel to all plaintiffs. 24 MR. LITVACK: Mark Litvack with the 25 Motion Picture Association of America, 5 1 Proceedings 2 counsel for plaintiffs. 3 MS. FREIHEIT: Jessica Freiheit, 4 summer associate, Proskauer Rose. 5 MR. GARBUS: Martin Garbus, Frankfurt 6 Garbus, one of the attorneys for the 7 defendant. 8 MR. HERNSTADT: And Edward Hernstadt 9 of Frankfurt Garbus. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court 11 reporter please swear in the witness. 12 MR. GARBUS: Just let me note that the 13 caption you read is incorrect. It should be 14 changed, that two of the people you 15 mentioned are no longer part of the case, 16 but we will give you a correct caption 17 before you type this up. 18 (Witness sworn.) 19 MR. GOLD: Actually, Martin, I don't 20 think the caption has ever been officially 21 changed. 22 MR. GARBUS: It has been. 23 MR. GOLD: Did you file something? 24 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 25 MR. HERNSTADT: We didn't file 6 1 Proceedings 2 anything, but Miss Reyes, the judge's law 3 clerk, asks, every time we go to court she 4 asks, What's going on? Aren't these people 5 out of the case? And she said she was going 6 to talk to the Clerk about getting it 7 changed. 8 MR. GOLD: Thus it isn't changed. 9 MR. HERNSTADT: I think it's been 10 done, but I don't know for sure. 11 MS. MILLER: Because our understanding 12 procedurally was that the defendant that had 13 settled out had to make a motion to change 14 the caption to remove their names. But 15 we'll figure that out. 16 MR. HERNSTADT: We'll figure that out. 17 I hope that the judge's deputy can take care 18 of it. 19 MS. MILLER: Perhaps. 20 (Continued on next page.) 21 22 23 24 25 7 1 Goldstein 2 E M M A N U E L G O L D S T E I N , called as a 3 witness, having been duly sworn by a Notary 4 Public, was examined and testified as 5 follows: 6 EXAMINATION BY 7 MR. GOLD: 8 Q. Mr. Goldstein, do you understand that 9 people who create artistic work are entitled to 10 copyright protection? 11 A. Absolutely. 12 MR. GARBUS: I object to the question. 13 Direct the witness not to answer. 14 MR. GOLD: On what ground? 15 MR. GARBUS: I think he is being 16 examined as a fact witness. 17 MR. GOLD: I asked him what 18 understanding he has. 19 MR. GARBUS: I object to the question. 20 I will allow the witness to answer. 21 Q. What rights do you understand copyright 22 holders have? 23 MR. GARBUS: Object to the question. 24 THE WITNESS: Can I answer anyway? 25 OK. 8 1 Goldstein 2 A. Basically if you create something, 3 you're entitled to benefit from it. No problem 4 with that. 5 Q. Do you understand that copyright holders 6 do have a right to decide who can see or use their 7 work? 8 A. That's not my understanding of how 9 copyright works. 10 Q. What is your understanding of how a 11 copyright works? 12 MR. GARBUS: I think I will object to 13 this and I will direct the witness not to 14 answer. The witness is not a lawyer. The 15 same objections were made when Mr. Valenti 16 was being examined and he was directed not 17 to answer a question. I direct the witness 18 not to answer. 19 Q. Do you understand that people who have 20 copyrights have the right to maximize their return 21 from the copyright? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What does that mean to you, maximize the 24 return on their copyrighted work? 25 A. It means they are entitled to benefit 9 1 Goldstein 2 however much the market dictates they will benefit 3 from the selling of their work. 4 Q. Do you understand that the motion 5 picture companies who have copyrights on their 6 movies have that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do copyright holders have the right to 9 decide as you understand it who will see their 10 work? 11 MR. GARBUS: I object to the question. 12 A. I don't see how that's possible. 13 Q. Do copyright holders have the right -- 14 for instance, if the copyright holder is a 15 novelist, do you understand that he would have the 16 right to decide who can sell his books to the 17 public? 18 MR. GARBUS: I object to it. 19 Mr. Goldstein's version of the copyright law 20 is not at issue. What is at issue is what 21 he did. And to suggest that because he has 22 one set of beliefs rather than another set 23 of beliefs, something that is lawful and 24 appropriate is somehow unlawful and 25 appropriate, because any view he had it 10 1 Goldstein 2 seems to me is improper. 3 It seems to me what you're doing is 4 you're asking questions for the benefit of 5 the viewing audience and that the judge 6 would not permit at trial the kinds of 7 questions you are now asking. 8 MR. GOLD: You can answer the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I forgot the question. 10 MR. GOLD: Can you read it back. 11 (A portion of the record was read.) 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you understand that copyright holders 14 have the right to protect their work against people 15 who would use it without permission? 16 A. Absolutely. 17 Q. Do you believe that anyone is entitled 18 to assist others in using or taking the copyright 19 work without permission? 20 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 21 the question. I would wait for a direction 22 from the judge before the witness is 23 required to answer that. 24 MR. GOLD: You're directing witness 25 not to answer that question? 11 1 Goldstein 2 MR. GARBUS: No, I will allow the 3 witness to answer. 4 MR. GOLD: Thank you. 5 MR. GARBUS: I would like to speak to 6 the witness for five minutes at this point 7 before we go on with the deposition. 8 MR. GOLD: First of all, do you want 9 to answer the pending question? 10 Would you read the question back to 11 the witness. 12 (A portion of the record was read.) 13 A. I think that depends on the definition 14 of the word "assist." If you're explaining how 15 technology works, then absolutely you're allowed to 16 describe that, to explain that. 17 If you're talking about leading somebody 18 by the hand to make an illegal copy of something, 19 then no, absolutely not. 20 MR. GARBUS: Can we take that 21 five-minute break? 22 MR. GOLD: Well, I object to that, 23 Mr. Garbus, because I think based on what we 24 have done so far, and since we only started 25 about seven minutes ago, that there can't be 12 1 Goldstein 2 any reason for a break other than to 3 instruct your witness on how to deal with 4 certain questions along the lines I am 5 asking. So I am going to take that position 6 with the judge. I think it's improper. 7 MR. GARBUS: OK. We had as a courtesy 8 throughout these depositions, irrespective 9 of when it occurred, always allowed -- and 10 this happened repeatedly with your witness, 11 any time a lawyer defending a case said I 12 would like to speak to a witness, even when 13 a question was posed, we had extended that 14 courtesy to each other. Basically we 15 extended it to you because these were your 16 witnesses being examined. I would just 17 expect that we would get the same courtesy 18 here. 19 MR. GOLD: Yes, but we didn't take a 20 break five minutes after the deposition 21 started. 22 MR. GARBUS: Yes, we did. We did the 23 exact same thing as previously. 24 MR. GOLD: In what depositions? 25 MR. GARBUS: I don't have all the 13 1 Goldstein 2 depositions in front of me. My memory is 3 we did it with Schulman. 4 Q. What is your understanding of the 5 meaning of the word "assist"? 6 MR. GARBUS: I would object to the 7 form. This witness is not a lawyer. He is 8 not being deposed as a lawyer. He is a 9 journalist who printed information, and I 10 think to ask him his definition of "assist" 11 is improper except to the extent that he had 12 conversations with his lawyer, and with his 13 lawyer he had discussions of that word, and 14 to that extent I would claim the privilege 15 with respect to it. 16 Do you have any independent knowledge 17 of what that word means other than the 18 conversations you've had with me or with 19 Mr. Hernstadt? And if it is based on 20 conversations you've had with me and 21 Mr. Hernstadt, then just it's based on 22 conversations with your lawyer, and then 23 it's privileged. 24 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 25 A. We did discuss that, so I would have to 14 1 Goldstein 2 say it's privileged. 3 Q. Do you ever use the word "assist" in 4 your writing? 5 A. I may have on occasion. 6 Q. What does it mean when you use it? 7 A. To help, but it's a very general type of 8 a word. 9 Q. Just tell me what it means to you. 10 A. To help, to aid. 11 Q. To help or aid? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Using that definition of the word 14 "assist," do you understand that anyone is entitled 15 to assist others in taking or using a copyright 16 work without permission? 17 MR. GARBUS: I will object to it. To 18 the extent of your knowledge of copyright 19 law or the word "assist" comes from 20 conversations with me or your attorneys, 21 then just say it. And to the extent that 22 these discussions were held in the context 23 of preparation for this case, it is 24 privileged. 25 A. Again, that's something that we 15 1 Goldstein 2 discussed. Whether it's a synonym of the word 3 "assist," it's still something we discussed. 4 Q. When did that discussion take place? 5 Just the date. 6 A. Before we came over here. 7 Q. Today. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you spent about an hour? 10 A. Not on the word "assist." 11 Q. With Mr. Garbus? 12 A. But, yeah, on various things, yes. 13 Q. Had you met with him before for the 14 purpose of preparing for your deposition? 15 A. Once, yes. 16 Q. When was that? 17 A. Yesterday. 18 Q. When was it you talked about whether 19 anyone is entitled to assist others in taking 20 someone's copyrighted work without permission? 21 MR. GARBUS: I will object to the 22 question as privileged. 23 Q. Today or yesterday? 24 MR. GARBUS: I will object to the 25 question as privileged. When he spoke to 16 1 Goldstein 2 his lawyer about it is privileged. 3 THE WITNESS: Should I answer? 4 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 5 A. Today. 6 Q. Did you have any understanding prior to 7 yesterday of whether anyone was entitled to assist 8 others in using a copyrighted work without 9 permission? 10 MR. GARBUS: I will object to it 11 except to the extent that you had some 12 awareness of whether linking was permitted 13 or not permitted and where you got that 14 understanding. 15 Q. I am not interested in your definition 16 of the word "linking" or posting in this question. 17 What I am asking you is before you 18 talked to your lawyers about the subject, your 19 present lawyers about the subject, did you have any 20 understanding before that of whether anyone was 21 entitled to assist others in taking a copyrighted 22 work without permission? 23 MR. GARBUS: I object to it. That 24 specifically -- object to form. That 25 specifically relates to the question of 17 1 Goldstein 2 linking. So if he had some knowledge of 3 whether linking was permissible or not 4 permissible, the question is did he have any 5 discussions about linking or did he have any 6 knowledge either from the previous court's 7 decision or now about linking, which is what 8 assisting is. 9 MR. GOLD: Can you read the question 10 back to the witness, and then I am going to 11 ask you to answer that, sir. 12 (A portion of the record was read.) 13 A. I had an opinion. Yes. 14 Q. What was your opinion? 15 A. That any kind of copyright infringement 16 is wrong. Helping someone obviously to infringe 17 upon copyright would be wrong too. 18 Q. Prior to yesterday did you have any 19 understanding of whether anyone was entitled to 20 break through a protective device which protects 21 digital copyrighted work in order to take that work 22 without permission? 23 MR. GARBUS: Objection unless you're 24 also including the term "fair use." It's 25 misleading unless you put that qualifier in 18 1 Goldstein 2 the sentence. 3 MR. GOLD: Do you remember the 4 question, Mr. Goldstein? 5 THE WITNESS: I'd appreciate having it 6 read back. 7 (A portion of the record was read.) 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What was your understanding? 10 A. That that kind of thing was wrong. That 11 taking something without permission is wrong. 12 Q. Is there a time in 1999 when you were 13 posting DeCSS? 14 A. In 1999 as of late November we mirrored 15 the site on our web site. 16 Q. Did 2600 ever post DeCSS? 17 A. That's what mirroring is, yes. 18 Q. For what purpose? 19 A. At the time it had only just happened a 20 couple of weeks earlier. We had noted the events 21 as someone had figured out the encryption standard 22 being used by DVDs and had found it to be rather 23 badly written. 24 When we saw that those people were being 25 intimidated and forced to shut down their web 19 1 Goldstein 2 sites, as journalists we stood up and said this is 3 wrong. And then we were listed then in all future 4 court records. 5 Q. You only mirrored DeCSS after this suit 6 was started? 7 A. No, we mirrored DeCSS after we became 8 aware that people around the world were being 9 threatened because they were showing people how the 10 encryption worked. 11 Q. What was the purpose of the mirror? 12 A. As journalists we have a very firm sense 13 of freedom of information, and we believe people 14 have the right to know how things work. As a 15 publisher of a magazine that deals with such 16 issues, I feel strongly that we all have both the 17 desire and the right to know how things around us 18 operate. And I don't see that as related in any 19 way to theft of those services. 20 Q. When you mirrored or posted DeCSS on 21 2600, how did you make sure that people who simply 22 wanted to see movies that were copyrighted without 23 buying them would not use DeCSS? 24 A. Well, there's two answers to that. 25 First of all, when you tell someone how something 20 1 Goldstein 2 works, when you give information out, people can 3 always use information in a good or a bad way. 4 That's just the nature of information. 5 The second part of that is that, what 6 was posted, DeCSS, has got nothing to do with 7 illegal copies. And I think that's been proven 8 time and again. I don't think a single case of 9 copyright violation has been traced to DeCSS. 10 Copies of DVDs have been made. 11 We had in fact reported two years 12 earlier on November 25, 1997, on one of our radio 13 shows that illegal copies of DVDs were being made 14 in what is known as bit by bit transfer using a 15 program called SoftDVD. And what the DeCSS code 16 showed instead was that the encryption was weak, 17 and that encryption was more about control of the 18 playing back as to where you played it back and how 19 you played it back, not making copies. 20 Q. Did you understand at the time you 21 posted DeCSS that most people who owned computers 22 would not understand how DeCSS works even if they 23 downloaded DeCSS? 24 A. Most people I know who have computers 25 would understand it. 21 1 Goldstein 2 Q. But you know far fewer than 50 percent 3 of the people in the United States that have 4 computers? 5 A. Absolutely, yes. 6 Q. You know far fewer than 2 percent of the 7 people who own computers. 8 MR. GARBUS: We would agree it is 9 one-tenth of one million. 10 A. I don't know that many people. 11 Q. Did you believe it was appropriate to 12 post DeCSS even though ten people, and only ten 13 people, might use that, might download it for the 14 purpose of finding out how it works? 15 MR. GARBUS: I will object to the form 16 of the question. There's been no proof that 17 ten people have used it. I object to the 18 form of the question, about whether he knew 19 or understood. 20 A. I would have to say that if I applied 21 that logic to everything I wrote, I wouldn't be 22 writing anything. Because someone can always take 23 what I've written and use it in a bad way and then 24 I would be up nights worrying about, you know, what 25 they did wrong. I don't think anyone has ever used 22 1 Goldstein 2 DeCSS to pirate a film. 3 Q. Do I take it that you agree that you had 4 the right or you believe you had the right to post 5 DeCSS even though far less than one percent of the 6 people who would download it would have any 7 interest in how CSS or DeCSS works? 8 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 9 the question. 10 A. I am not sure it is possible to say how 11 many people who downloaded it understand it. I 12 don't think a significant portion of the American 13 public downloaded it. 14 I do think the people who went to the 15 web site read the text that surrounded it and 16 hopefully learned something from the text, and if 17 they were interested in pursuing it further, 18 learning more about the technology, then they had 19 to look at the program as well. 20 Q. Was there anything wrong in your 21 printing the text that accompanied the letters 22 DeCSS? 23 A. I'm not sure I understand your question. 24 MR. GARBUS: Objection to form. 25 Q. You had an absolute right, didn't you, 23 1 Goldstein 2 in saying whatever you said on your web site except 3 for DeCSS? Isn't that right? 4 MR. GARBUS: Objection to the form of 5 the question. He can't refer to the term 6 "DeCSS" on his Web site? Is that the 7 question? 8 MR. GOLD: You can answer. 9 THE WITNESS: Can you just repeat that 10 back? 11 MR. GARBUS: I didn't understand the 12 question. 13 (A portion of the record was read.) 14 A. I had the right to say what I said on 15 the web site, and I believe that extends to posting 16 the code as well. 17 Q. Do you or any corporation you're 18 affiliated with have a copyright, own a copyright? 19 A. Yes, our words are copywritten in our 20 magazine. 21 Q. Who caused them to be copywritten? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. Why? 24 A. It's standard to have a copyright to 25 protect your interest. Someone could take 2600 and 24 1 Goldstein 2 just simply reproduce it if we had no copyright. 3 Q. What interests were you protecting? 4 A. Well, our interests obviously. We have 5 words that we write and we don't want somebody else 6 just taking them. But by the same token, we have 7 no problem with people spreading our information 8 around. Because we write it for the purpose of 9 being read. But we do hold the copyright. 10 Q. I think I am confused. I don't 11 understand why you have the copyright if you say 12 that you don't care who uses your material. 13 A. Well, there's different standards of 14 use. If someone were to take our magazine and 15 simply duplicate it, well, that's obviously very 16 bad. If somebody were to, say, quote something 17 from one of our articles, we have no problem with 18 that. We consider that fair use. 19 Q. In other words, if they had quoted 20 something, but not the whole thing, you consider 21 that OK. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. And when you got the copyright, one of 24 the purposes would protect anyone from taking the 25 whole thing. 25 1 Goldstein 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is it your understanding that the 4 current court injunction against your posting DeCSS 5 violates your right? 6 MR. GARBUS: I will object to it. 7 A. I wouldn't say it violates my rights. I 8 say that it's open to contention whether it's right 9 or not, but obviously we're following the 10 injunction so we respect it. 11 Q. Do you believe that the current court 12 injunction violates rights that you have -- 13 MR. GARBUS: I object. 14 Q. -- in any way, shape or form? 15 MR. GARBUS: Object to the form of the 16 question. 17 Q. Or do you believe the current court 18 injunction is perfect proper and appropriate? And 19 I am asking for your beliefs. 20 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 21 the question. If you can't exclude anything 22 from any privileged communications you had, 23 any conversations with counsel telling you 24 what your rights are, so to the extent it 25 comes out of conversations with counsel, 26 1 Goldstein 2 just say that and I will claim the 3 privilege. 4 A. I respect the injunction. 5 Q. Excuse me? 6 A. I respect the injunction. I don't 7 believe the injunction is violating my rights per 8 se. I think it's a fight that we're engaged in. 9 And obviously the injunction was filed against us. 10 We respect that and we followed it. So.... 11 Q. Do you understand that the injunction 12 prohibits you and 2600 from posting DeCSS? 13 A. And we have done just that. 14 Q. Do you think it's appropriate and right 15 that the court did that? 16 MR. GARBUS: I object to it to the 17 extent that what the judge did is right or 18 wrong comes out of conversations you had 19 with counsel. 20 MR. GOLD: Oh, my gosh. Martin, I 21 object to what you're doing. 22 A. I see a difference between what the 23 judge said and what the people behind the case are 24 saying. Obviously I don't believe the people 25 behind the case are right. I don't think the judge 27 1 Goldstein 2 acted improperly. I think the judge is doing what 3 judges do, and I have every faith in that. 4 Q. What do judges do? 5 A. Judges make decisions based on the 6 evidence given to them, and it's my hope that we'll 7 present evidence to prove that we're right in the 8 end. 9 MR. GARBUS: Leon, as you know, 10 there's a motion to vacate the injunction. 11 Q. I take it you don't believe that the 12 injunction is inappropriate. 13 A. The injunction in itself. 14 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 Q. Do you think you have a right to post 17 DeCSS? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. Why? 20 A. I consider it -- 21 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 22 the question. 23 A. I consider it a form of speech. I 24 consider it a form of basically writing about 25 technology showing how things work, and I think it 28 1 Goldstein 2 is a very -- it is a chilling effect if you start 3 punishing people for showing how something works. 4 It is one step away from punishing someone from 5 talking about it. And I think as journalists we 6 need to stand up to that. 7 MR. GOLD: I would like to have this 8 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1. 9 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1, piece of paper 10 with the letters DeCSS written on it, marked 11 for identification, as of this date.) 12 Q. I am going show you Exhibit 1, 13 Mr. Goldstein. Give you a chance to look at it. 14 It won't take very long. 15 A. OK. 16 Q. What does that mean to you? 17 A. It means you have written DeCSS on a 18 piece of paper. 19 Q. But what does it mean? 20 MR. GARBUS: Object to the form of the 21 question. 22 A. What does it mean? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. It's -- it doesn't really mean a whole 25 lot to me to be honest. You have written something 29 1 Goldstein 2 on a piece of paper. But this is not the same 3 thing as DeCSS code. 4 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 5 the question. 6 Q. You say that is not the DeCSS code; is 7 that right? 8 A. Five letters on a piece of paper? No, 9 sir, it's not. 10 Q. Is that a word? 11 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 12 the question. 13 Q. DeCSS. 14 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 15 the question. I direct the witness not to 16 answer. DeCSS speaks for itself. You have 17 written five letters on a piece of paper. 18 MR. GOLD: You're going to direct the 19 witness not to answer? On what ground? 20 MR. GARBUS: Can you tell me where 21 you're doing with this deposition? 22 MR. GOLD: No. 23 MR. GARBUS: It is now close to 11 24 o'clock. It seems to me what you have done 25 in the last half hour is ask questions that 30 1 Goldstein 2 have limited relevancy, if any, to this 3 lawsuit, his understanding of the law. 4 MR. GOLD: I'm sorry. 5 MR. GARBUS: And I appreciate it -- 6 don't apologize until I'm through. I 7 appreciate it if you get to the questions 8 that I perceive to be at issue in this 9 lawsuit. 10 I mean, I think it is very cute to 11 write DeCSS on a piece of paper and I 12 presume you can examine him for half an hour 13 on it, but it has nothing to do with the 14 issues in this lawsuit. What his 15 understanding is of five letters you have 16 written on a blank piece of paper -- 17 MR. GOLD: I think an objection is OK, 18 but you're filibustering. 19 MR. GARBUS: Can I finish? 20 MR. GOLD: No. I think you're 21 filibustering. That's not an objection. 22 That's improper. 23 Q. Now you can answer the question. Is 24 that a word, DeCSS? 25 A. Not in the English language. It's five 31 1 Goldstein 2 letters. It stands for something. 3 Q. And I take it it has no meaning to you. 4 A. It in that form? Well, it has meaning 5 in that it represents something. It represents 6 what we're talking about today. Other than that, I 7 am not sure if that's the way you're presenting it. 8 Q. Thank you. Do you believe that when you 9 were posting DeCSS you were engaged in an act of 10 civil disobedience? 11 MR. GARBUS: Objection. He has 12 already testified he was the media and was 13 presenting as part of a story. 14 A. When we first posted it we posted it 15 as journalists talking about a news story. 16 Q. How was the posting accomplished? 17 A. The posting of the actual DeCSS or the 18 article surrounding it? 19 Q. The posting of DeCSS. What you call the 20 actual DeCSS. 21 A. I wasn't the person who actually copied 22 it, but I imagine it was taken from one of the 23 sites that had it up on the Net. We verified what 24 was in it and put it up on our site. 25 Q. By whom? Who did that? 32 1 Goldstein 2 A. Probably our webmaster. 3 Q. And who's that? 4 A. His on-line name is Macki. 5 Q. And his real name? 6 A. I know his first name. His first name 7 is Mike. Last name begins with the letter S. 8 That's really all I know. I know how to E-mail. I 9 know how to get ahold of him, but I don't know his 10 full last name. 11 Q. He is not employed by you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ask him to post DeCSS on your 14 site? 15 A. We talked about it and agreed that that 16 was the appropriate thing to do. 17 Q. So you did ask him to do it? 18 A. We conferred. We agreed together. I 19 didn't direct him to do this. 20 Q. Does he have any ownership of your 21 stock? 22 A. Not as such. I mean, he has a say in 23 the kinds of things that go on there. 24 Q. Do you have an ownership of your stock? 25 A. Yes. 33 1 Goldstein 2 Q. You own stock in the company that 3 controls your stock? 4 A. It's a private corporation, yes. 5 Q. Did you approve of what he did posting 6 the CSS on your site? 7 A. DeCSS. 8 Q. DeCSS on your site. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In the past six months have you been 11 engaged in any kind of reverse engineering of 12 anything? 13 A. I am a journalist. I am not an 14 engineer. 15 Q. So the answer is no? 16 A. The answer is no. 17 Q. In the last six months have you been 18 engaged in any cryptographical research? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Prior to the court proceedings did you 21 talk to any people about DeCSS who were in fact 22 engaged or planning to engage in reverse 23 engineering? 24 A. Not with my knowledge. I talked to a 25 lot of people on the Internet. People message back 34 1 Goldstein 2 and forth and some might be very knowledgeable in 3 certain fields. So it's very hard for me to say 4 whether or not I was talking to somebody who was 5 doing something like that. 6 Q. Since the commencement of this lawsuit 7 have you talked to any people who are using DeCSS 8 for the purpose of reverse engineering? 9 A. To be honest, I have never found anybody 10 who has successfully gotten DeCSS to work. 11 Q. So the answer to my question is no? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You haven't talked to any people. 14 And where did you get the understanding 15 that people can't get DeCSS to work? 16 A. I've gotten messages, again on the 17 Internet. I remember back towards the later part 18 of last year seeing messages from people who are 19 trying to figure it out and it was too complex for 20 them. 21 I imagine there are some people who have 22 gotten it to work and have been able to use DVDs on 23 their Linux machines, which is the purpose of it. 24 But myself, I have not talked to anybody personally 25 who has done that. 35 1 Goldstein 2 Q. To your knowledge, has anyone in the 3 world currently engaged in reverse engineering 4 DeCSS or CSS? 5 A. Which? 6 Q. CSS. 7 A. I think it's already been done. I think 8 CSS has pretty much been shown to be not very 9 secure encryptionwise. 10 Q. Do you know of any cryptographical 11 research with respect to DeCSS that's been done 12 anywhere in the world? 13 A. Not specifically, no. 14 Q. How did you come to the understanding 15 that the purpose of DeCSS was to view movies on a 16 Linux machine? 17 A. There's been quite a lot of discussion 18 in various forums and at conferences and various 19 places like that by people who are extremely 20 knowledgeable in the field, from the founders of 21 Linux to its users, and it became very clear very 22 quickly that this program was simply made so that 23 they would have a way of viewing DVDs as well, 24 since they were not granted a license to have a DVD 25 player on their machines. 36 1 Goldstein 2 Q. Do you know if there is a Linux-based 3 DVD player that existed? 4 A. I had heard there is something being 5 developed that was not open source. It was closed 6 source. But it was something that was being 7 developed. 8 Q. Why do you say the purpose of DeCSS was 9 to allow DVDs to be played in a Linux-based player 10 if there is no Linux-based player? 11 MR. GARBUS: Objection as to form. 12 A. Because by using DeCSS you would have a 13 Linux-based player, which previously did not exist. 14 In fact, previously was illegal. 15 Q. Do you mean that in order to play the 16 movies you're talking about people are decrypting 17 CSS? 18 A. The only way to play a movie on a Linux 19 machine is to decrypt it so that you can see it on 20 a different platform. The way it had been before, 21 you had to buy a particular operating system or a 22 particular machine that had already been granted a 23 license, which meant that the thousands, millions 24 of people with Linux machines were unable to use 25 DVDs. They had already bought the DVDs. They had 37 1 Goldstein 2 already bought the computers. But they were unable 3 to use them. 4 Q. Is that because the people that held the 5 copyrights to the movies encrypted DVDs so they 6 couldn't be played except on a licensed player? 7 A. My understanding is that they encrypted 8 them and only gave licenses to organizations 9 willing to pay very large fees, and that's 10 basically my understanding of it. 11 Q. Once you decrypt the movie, how can you 12 play it if there's no player? 13 MR. GARBUS: We're talking now about a 14 Linux operating system? 15 MR. GOLD: Yes. 16 MR. GARBUS: Objection to the form of 17 the question. 18 MR. GOLD: Yes, we are talking about 19 Linux. 20 MR. GARBUS: You don't understand the 21 technology, Mr. Gold. I object to the form 22 of the question. It doesn't make sense. 23 Go ahead, answer it. 24 A. Ask it one more time so I'm clear. 25 Q. Once you decrypt the movie how can you 38 1 Goldstein 2 watch it if there's no player? 3 A. My understanding with the way DeCSS 4 works, and I could be wrong because I have never 5 used it myself, is that by using this particular 6 tool you then have a player that will allow you to 7 play the film that you've decrypted. 8 And if that's not the case then there 9 might be another utility out there that does make a 10 player that's a software-based player. 11 Q. You're not sure. 12 A. I am not entirely sure on that, no. 13 Q. When did you first find out as you say 14 that the purpose of DeCSS was to view movies on a 15 Linux player? 16 A. Well, right away we knew that was 17 primary purpose. 18 Q. How did you know? 19 A. By talking to people who were experts in 20 the field of Linux. 21 Q. Who did you talk to? 22 A. I know there are some people involved in 23 the Livid project, L-i-v-i-d, which was a project 24 to make a DVD player for Linux which has been going 25 on for quite some time. 39 1 Goldstein 2 Q. My question was who did you talk to, 3 what person did you talk to that gave you -- 4 A. I don't know specific names, 5 unfortunately. These are people I talk to either 6 on line or I met briefly at a conference. 7 Q. What is the -- I see. You have no 8 record of the fact that they gave you this 9 information. No written record. 10 A. I have no written record myself, but 11 it's been posted in many public forums. 12 Q. Did you exchange communications with 13 people involved in the Livid project by E-mail? 14 A. I may have at some point last year when 15 it was first unfolding, yes. 16 Q. Do you have those E-mails? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You wiped them out of -- 19 A. I don't save outgoing mail and I am very 20 stingy with what I save because I get so much mail. 21 Q. Can it be retrieved from your hard 22 drive? 23 A. No. It was so long ago. 24 Q. For how long can you retrieve messages 25 on your hard drive? 40 1 Goldstein 2 A. I have never tried. I mean, it's a 3 Unix-based system. I think it's very -- it's not 4 like the White House. It is very difficult to 5 retrieve something. 6 Q. Is it fair to say you actually don't 7 know whether or not these messages could be 8 retrieved? 9 A. Oh, I am pretty positive they can't be 10 retrieved. 11 Q. When you mean "pretty positive," what 12 does that mean? Not positive or positive? 13 A. Positive. 14 Q. Positive. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How did you get to know that it is 17 positive that you can't retrieve messages that are 18 six months old? 19 A. Well, I base that on when I wanted to 20 retrieve things in the past and I asked sysadmins. 21 I asked them can I get this back and they say no 22 way. 23 I imagine that probably holds true no 24 matter what the contents were. 25 Q. And you have no knowledge of anyone on 41 1 Goldstein 2 the Livid project that you talked to about DeCSS. 3 A. Not off the top of my head. I mean, 4 it's not that large an organization, so I don't 5 think it's difficult to figure out who -- 6 MR. GARBUS: If you leave a space in the 7 deposition, Mr. Goldstein, when he returns 8 the deposition, will see if he can recall 9 any names and will put them in the 10 deposition. 11 MR. GOLD: OK. 12 TO BE FURNISHED: ________________________________ 13 __________________________________________________. 14 Q. Do you know any people who belong or who 15 work on the Livid project whether or not you have 16 talked to them? 17 A. Just through a communication and 18 possibly meeting them at a conference. 19 Q. Do you know their names? 20 A. I'd probably remember if I heard them. 21 But I don't remember the names off my head. 22 Q. What is the Livid project? 23 A. As I said, Livid project, my 24 understanding is an ongoing project to make a 25 DVD player for Linux machines. 42 1 Goldstein 2 Q. And they're still at it? 3 A. I believe so. 4 Q. How do you know? 5 A. I've just heard from various public 6 discussions. 7 Q. Prior to your conversations with your 8 attorneys this week, did you believe that you were 9 allowed to post DeCSS or link to other sites 10 posting DeCSS as long as several people downloaded 11 DeCSS to engage in cryptographical research? 12 MR. GARBUS: Can I hear the question 13 again. 14 (A portion of the record was read.) 15 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 16 the question. It's several questions in 17 one. Can't you just ask the question 18 simply? There are several different parts 19 of the question, Mr. Gold. Don't you see 20 that? 21 Do you understand the question? Can 22 you answer it? 23 THE WITNESS: I will give it my best 24 shot. 25 A. Basically I think it's not a conditional 43 1 Goldstein 2 thing. When you post something, you post something 3 as long as somebody downloads it for a particular 4 purpose. 5 Our understanding was that it was 6 perfectly OK to post this. Obviously when the 7 injunction happened we stopped posting it. And 8 linking is a completely different issue. 9 Q. So I take it it was not your 10 understanding that you were allowed to post DeCSS 11 as long as several people downloaded CSS to use -- 12 downloaded DeCSS -- 13 MR. GARBUS: Object to the form of the 14 question. 15 Q. -- in order to engage in cryptographical 16 research? 17 A. I think I answered. I think I 18 answered as best I can. It's not a yes-no 19 question. You have a conditional phrase in there, 20 so -- 21 Q. Is it your belief that DeCSS can be made 22 available to anyone in the United States as long as 23 a few people use it for cryptographical research or 24 reverse engineering? 25 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 44 1 Goldstein 2 the question. I don't understand it. It's 3 a conditional question. Can't you rephrase 4 the question in an intelligible way? 5 Q. You can answer. 6 A. Again, it is information. We can't put 7 conditions on the exchange of information and say, 8 you can only read this if you're going to use it in 9 a particular way. We put up information on our 10 site and people read it. That's the relationship 11 we have. 12 Q. So your right to post DeCSS doesn't 13 derive from the fact that -- it doesn't derive from 14 how it is used by the end user; is that right? 15 MR. GARBUS: I will object to it. 16 That's not what the witness said. The 17 witness said -- 18 MR. GOLD: I don't care what the 19 witness said. I am asking a different 20 question. 21 MR. GARBUS: If you don't care what 22 the witness said, Mr. Gold, then you can't 23 say isn't this -- what you just said. If 24 you're not going to listen to the witness, 25 then don't listen to the witness. But you 45 1 Goldstein 2 can't phrase questions that way. I object 3 to the form of the question. And you know 4 better than that. 5 Q. Do you believe that the end use of DeCSS 6 has nothing to do with the lawfulness of posting 7 it? 8 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 9 the question. I object to the question on 10 the grounds that it calls for a legal 11 conclusion. This witness is not a lawyer. 12 Nor should he be asked about questions 13 concerning legal conclusions. 14 If there's anything that in that 15 question that comes as a result of 16 conversations that you and I have had as 17 counsel, namely with respect to legal 18 conclusions, just say it. If you think you 19 can answer the question in some intelligible 20 way, then answer it. 21 THE WITNESS: Could you read back the 22 question, please. 23 MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold, I don't know 24 what you're doing. These questions are not 25 admissible at a trial. The judge won't let 46 1 Goldstein 2 you ask him. So why ask them here now? 3 (A portion of the record was read.) 4 MR. GARBUS: If you can't answer the 5 question, just say you can't answer the 6 question. 7 A. It's a really hard question for me to 8 answer. I don't think they're related, no. 9 That's my view as a journalist. I am not a legal 10 expert. 11 MR. GOLD: Mr. Garbus, I am going to 12 respectfully request that you cease from 13 directing your witness on how to answer a 14 question. If you wanted to do that before 15 you came here today, you had ample 16 opportunity. If it continues, I will take 17 it to the judge and we'll play the movie. 18 MR. GARBUS: Whatever you want to do 19 is fine. 20 MR. GOLD: I will have to. It's 21 inappropriate. 22 Q. Prior to talking to your lawyer in the 23 last two days did you have an understanding of the 24 meaning of the word "fair use"? 25 A. Yes. 47 1 Goldstein 2 Q. Is that an understanding you came to 3 through your profession as a journalist? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What was that understanding? 6 A. That it's legal to use bits of 7 copyrighted material for the purpose of describing 8 something, showing an example of something. For 9 instance, even a student presenting something to a 10 class might play something from a videotape for 11 instance. That's fair use. You might see 12 something on television that shows a scene from a 13 particular movie. That's fair use. A parody is 14 fair use. 15 Q. Was it your understanding before you 16 talked to your lawyers in the past two days that 17 fair use only related to using bits of copyrighted 18 work or pieces of copyrighted work but not the 19 whole thing? 20 A. That's my understanding. The whole 21 thing isn't exactly fair use. 22 MR. GOLD: I would like to have this 23 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2. 24 MR. GOLD: A document which on the 25 cover says "2600, The Hacker Quarterly, 48 1 Goldstein 2 Volume Seventeen, Number One, Spring 2000." 3 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2, Spring 2000 4 issue of 2600, The Hacker Quarterly, 5 magazine, marked for identification, as of 6 this date.) 7 Q. Can you describe that document, 8 Mr. Goldstein? 9 A. Yes. This is the magazine I publish, 10 2600, The Hacker Quarterly. This is the spring 11 2000 edition. 12 Q. On page 7 there is what appears to be a 13 photograph. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is that in fact a photograph? 16 A. It's a doctored photograph. This is -- 17 it's parody. It's basically taken from the World 18 Trade Organization demonstrations and you spot MPAA 19 on the back of their jackets. 20 Q. So if you know, is it true that the only 21 thing in this picture that's not true, not actual, 22 are the initials MPAA? 23 A. Well, the initials are -- 24 Q. I mean, that's not a photograph of 25 somebody. 49 1 Goldstein 2 A. No, as I said, we put MPAA over whatever 3 was there before, if there was anything there 4 before. So no, there were not MPAA storm troopers 5 in the streets. 6 Q. But pictures of these troops or police 7 people, that was an actual photo? 8 A. That was an actual photograph, yes. 9 That was taken in Seattle in November. 10 Q. And in what demonstration did you say? 11 A. World Trade Organization. 12 Q. What was the demonstration about? 13 A. That was demonstration against the World 14 Trade Organization in Seattle. November 30th, I 15 think. 16 Q. In the second paragraph there's some 17 discussion about a Mitnick. I gather that's a 18 Mr. Mitnick? Page 5. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who is he? 21 A. Kevin Mitnick was a computer hacker who 22 had been imprisoned for five years. 23 Q. Do you know what he was convicted of? 24 A. In the end he was convicted of basically 25 misrepresenting himself on the telephone and having 50 1 Goldstein 2 source code that belonged to cellular phone 3 companies that was looking at. 4 Q. Do you know anything about the charge of 5 misrepresenting himself on the telephone? 6 A. It's basically calling someone on the 7 phone saying that you're an employee of a 8 particular company when you're not in order to get 9 some bit of information. That's my understanding 10 of it in his particular case. 11 Q. And that's the only crime you know of 12 that he was convicted of? 13 A. In the end, that's the only crime he was 14 charged with, yes. And that's why we took the case 15 up because we thought it was rather unfair that 16 someone would be locked away for five years for 17 something rather minor. 18 Q. When you say you took the case up, what 19 does that mean? 20 A. As far as writing about it, as far as 21 following it and currently producing a documentary 22 on it. 23 Q. Where did 2600 come from? 24 A. Do you mean the name? 25 Q. Part of the name of The Hacker 51 1 Goldstein 2 Quarterly. 3 A. Well, 2600 is a frequency that if you go 4 back into history, back into the early 1960s, when 5 people first started exploring the phone network, 6 the sound of 2600 hertz tones would basically 7 disconnect whatever call you were connected to and 8 put you in what's known as operator mode, where you 9 could basically explore the entire phone network. 10 That was back in the day when there was just one 11 phone network run by AT&T. 12 Q. Could you then make calls without paying 13 for them? 14 A. That was one thing you could do. But 15 you could also explore and talk to operators in 16 various places and just learn how the whole thing 17 was pieced together. 18 That's where the term "phone freaking" 19 was established. That's where a lot of hackers 20 traced their roots to, just exploring one of the 21 first major computer systems in existence. 22 Q. And you adopted the 2600 as your 23 masthead, your banner? 24 A. Yes. Well, the number had some 25 significance and it was rather an unusual name, so 52 1 Goldstein 2 it appealed to us. 3 Q. Were you ever involved in any activity 4 in any way relating to abusing the phone system? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you ever make phone calls without 7 paying for them? 8 A. No. 9 MR. GARBUS: Note my objection to the 10 question and the previous question. 11 Q. Have you ever been convicted of any 12 crime? 13 MR. GARBUS: Objection. 14 A. I was -- I had gotten in trouble for 15 computer hacking in 1984, which was the first year 16 our magazine came out. 17 MR. GARBUS: I object to the question. 18 I object to the entire line of inquiry. I 19 think I will direct the witness not to 20 answer unless the judge rules. 21 MR. GOLD: On what ground? 22 MR. GARBUS: I would ask you to go on, 23 and if you can get a ruling from the court 24 that is favorable to you, then he will 25 answer the question. But I think it is 53 1 Goldstein 2 inappropriate. 3 Q. When you used the word "in trouble," 4 sir, what did that mean to you? 5 MR. GARBUS: I object to the question 6 and direct the witness not to answer until 7 such time as the court rules. 8 Q. May I see that for a second, sir? 9 A. Sure. 10 Q. Thank you. Turning to page 6 of the 11 document, the right-hand column, about in the 12 middle of the paragraph, which is the last full 13 paragraph on the page, the following words are 14 written: Quote, So under the DMCA it is illegal to 15 play your DVD on your computer if your computer 16 isn't licensed for it, close quote. 17 MR. GARBUS: Excuse me. I don't see 18 where you are. 19 MR. GOLD: You don't see the language? 20 MR. GARBUS: Oh, I see. I have it 21 now. 22 Q. Is that true? 23 A. That's, um -- 24 MR. GARBUS: I object to it. It's a 25 legal conclusion. 54 1 Goldstein 2 A. That's my understanding. I mean, I 3 wrote that piece, so.... 4 Q. What is that, sir? 5 A. I wrote that piece, so that is my 6 understanding, yes. 7 Q. How did you come to that understanding? 8 MR. GARBUS: I will object to it. I 9 think I will direct the witness not to 10 answer. It is a legal conclusion. If the 11 judge directs him to answer, then he will 12 answer the question. 13 Q. The next sentence, states, quote, "It's 14 illegal for you to figure out a way to play a 15 European DVD on your TV set." Is that true? 16 MR. GARBUS: I will object to the 17 question, direct the witness not to answer. 18 Calls for a conclusion of law. If the judge 19 directs a journalist to answer about 20 something that he has written, then of 21 course he will answer it. 22 Q. The last sentence says, "if you rent a 23 DVD" -- I think it says, "And if you rent a DVD 24 from your local video store, figuring out a way to 25 bypass the commercials in the beginning could land 55 1 Goldstein 2 you in court or even prison." Is that true? 3 MR. GARBUS: I direct the witness not 4 to answer. It calls for a legal conclusion. 5 To the extent that it is based on 6 conversations with counsel, it comes within 7 the privilege. If the judge decides that 8 the privilege doesn't apply or that he 9 should answer the question, then he 10 certainly will. 11 Q. I believe, Mr. Goldstein, that you wrote 12 this piece that we're now -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- making some kind of fair use of? 15 A. Yes. You can make copies of it. 16 That's perfectly OK. 17 Q. Thank you, sir. 18 A. Sure. Now, if that was a DVD, you might 19 have some trouble. 20 Q. What's that, sir? 21 A. If that was a DVD it might be a 22 different story. 23 Q. Do you mean if anyone makes a copy of a 24 DVD he would violate the law? 25 MR. GARBUS: I will object to the 56 1 Goldstein 2 question. 3 Q. Do you believe that, sir? 4 MR. GARBUS: I will object to the 5 question. 2600 wouldn't sue. DVD might 6 sue. MPA might sue. It is not just a 7 question of the law. I direct the witness 8 not to answer. 9 Q. At the end of that page, the following 10 is contained: "The world the MPAA and 11 megacorporations want us to live in is a living 12 hell." What do you mean by "living hell"? 13 A. Well, what we're going through right now 14 is kind of a living hell. I see that happening to 15 a lot more people. 16 Q. So the only thing you meant by "living 17 hell" was that the MPAA would cause suits to be 18 brought against people it thought were violating 19 the law? 20 A. I believe Jack Valenti said they'd file 21 a thousand lawsuits a day if necessary. 22 Q. Against people who violate the law? 23 A. Against people they feel like filing 24 suits against. 25 Q. Is that what he said or did you just 57 1 Goldstein 2 make that up? 3 A. Not the last part, but he did say a 4 thousand lawsuits a day. That was accurate. 5 Q. Was he talking about law breakers? 6 MR. GARBUS: I will object to it. 7 Q. Did you understand that he was talking 8 about law breakers? 9 A. I don't really know what he was talking 10 about to be honest. He basically seemed to think 11 that lots of people are law breakers without really 12 describing how they broke the law. 13 MR. GARBUS: Can we take our morning 14 break now? It's 11:30. 15 MR. GOLD: Sure. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:22 17 a.m. We're going off the record. 18 (A recess was taken.) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:40 20 a.m. We're back on record. 21 MR. GARBUS: I am going to withdraw my 22 objection to your question about the 1984 23 incident. If you want to pursue it, you can 24 pursue it. I don't think it is appropriate. 25 If you want to pursue it, I think you should 58 1 Goldstein 2 pursue it. 3 BY MR. GOLD: 4 Q. You referred, I believe, to getting in 5 some trouble in 1984. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What was that about? 8 A. It involved one of the first cases of 9 computer hacking. Basically there was a system, 10 still is a system known as Telenet, where basically 11 it was protected with one-letter passwords, the 12 letter A. And a lot of organizations were wide 13 open -- Raytheon, Coca-Cola, in fact, even the 14 Executive Office of the President. 15 And when they finally discovered that 16 their system was wide open, I basically came 17 forward and explained it to them. I was indicted, 18 but I think I was dealt with fairly. I paid 19 restitution and was on probation. I never did it 20 again. And from that point I've tried to set a 21 good example through the magazine. So people don't 22 make that kind of mistake and so that they are 23 dealt with fairly if they do. 24 Q. Did you plead guilty to some charge? 25 A. I believe back then it was wire fraud, 59 1 Goldstein 2 yeah. It was -- basically I explained how the 3 system worked to them and I think they benefitted 4 from that. 5 MR. GARBUS: You should know, 6 Mr. Gold, my understanding is the file was 7 sealed and that none of this is a matter of 8 public record. I would expect you to treat 9 the record appropriately on your own motion. 10 MR. GOLD: Certainly. 11 MR. GARBUS: My understanding also is, 12 and I could be wrong, that he was given an 13 ACD, which is an adjournment in 14 contemplation of dismissal or the equivalent 15 of it. So that the record was sealed and 16 charges against him were dismissed. 17 Now, I have not seen, because it's not 18 public knowledge, what the record is. So 19 again, I would ask you to deal with this 20 transcript appropriately. I didn't want to 21 get put into the position, Mr. Goldstein 22 didn't want to be put in the position of 23 having not to answer any question you 24 raised. 25 But the fact that the file is sealed 60 1 Goldstein 2 it seems to me is of significance. 3 MR. GOLD: Just so that we understand, 4 I gather what you're asking me is to show 5 this only to other lawyers working on the 6 case and including lawyers at MPA working on 7 the case. 8 MR. GARBUS: No, I am asking you to 9 use your judgment as to how you deal with 10 this appropriately. 11 MR. GOLD: Well, let me tell you what 12 I think I am going to do, because we'll send 13 the transcript to lawyers for the companies, 14 to lawyers for the MPA, and to lawyers here, 15 and we'll use it in court. 16 Is there anything about that that you 17 find inappropriate so I can consider it? 18 MR. GARBUS: I will take it under 19 advisement. 20 MR. HERNSTADT: We'll designate it in 21 the ordinary course. 22 MR. GOLD: Just tell me what you mean 23 and what you want and if it doesn't block me 24 from what I am doing, that's what I will do, 25 is all I am asking. I have no interest in 61 1 Goldstein 2 anything else but this case, and .... 3 BY MR. GOLD: 4 Q. When you use the word "hacking," what 5 does that mean? As you use it, sir. 6 A. My definition of hacking is basically a 7 form of asking a lot of questions, experimenting 8 with technology, basically twiddling with something 9 till you get it to work just right. Hacking can 10 encompass any number of things, things that are in 11 your own house, things that you encounter on a 12 day-to-day basis. 13 Q. So it doesn't necessarily involve 14 breaking into somebody else's computer system? 15 A. Not at all. That's a media definition. 16 That's how the media has distorted the word over 17 the past decade or so. But the real world of 18 hacking, I think if you go through our pages you 19 will see that it encompasses quite a bit more. Not 20 just things like that. 21 Q. What would it include, if you can give 22 us an example? 23 A. For instance, your own computer, there's 24 a world of things you can hack in your own 25 computer. Your own telephone, there's ways of 62 1 Goldstein 2 figuring out how to dial certain things. You know, 3 only simpleminded people think it's just to get a 4 free phone call. 5 No, there are things hidden within the 6 switch. For instance, there is a number you dial 7 to read back your phone number. And it's always 8 considered a triumph when you figure out what that 9 number is. 10 To most people hacking is a big waste of 11 time because there is no immediate payoff. That's 12 something only people who are hackers understand, 13 the thrill of figuring something out. 14 I should say also a lot of journalists 15 have the same thrill, when they figure something 16 out, when they chase down a source or uncover 17 something no one else has uncovered. So I think 18 the two are very tightly combined. The fact that 19 I'm both a hacker and a journalist, you know, 20 there's a lot to talk about. 21 Q. Is the next chapter a regular piece in 22 all issues of 2600? 23 A. You mean our editorial. 24 Q. Is that your editorial? 25 A. Yes. The editorial is always the first 63 1 Goldstein 2 thing that appears after the staff box. 3 Q. And you write all of the editorials? 4 A. Yes, I write the editorial. 5 Q. Do I take it as far as you know all 6 statements made in your editorials are true? 7 MR. GARBUS: I will object to that. 8 A. It's my opinion. 9 Q. Based on your information and belief? 10 A. Based on my opinion as journalist what I 11 say is true. 12 MR. GARBUS: When a journalist calls 13 Bush a crook or a journalist says that 14 Clinton is a felon, it doesn't necessarily 15 mean he has been adjudicated a crook or 16 adjudicated a felon. 17 MR. GOLD: That was very interesting, 18 Mr. Gorbus. 19 MR. GARBUS: The name is Garbus. You 20 said Gorbus. Garbus. 21 MR. GOLD: I said what? But if I can, 22 Mr. Garbus, may I just on this record ask 23 questions to your witness and have him 24 answer it and have you withhold all of your 25 learning about whatever it is? 64 1 Goldstein 2 Q. Is it your belief that journalists have 3 any special exemptions from the law that applies to 4 everyone else? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Can I see that? 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. Thank you, sir. Reading a sentence at 9 page 6, right-hand side, it's in the second full 10 paragraph. The second sentence says, referring 11 to -- well, the paragraph begins, "The MPAA is 12 coming at us using a very scary piece of law that 13 civil libertarians have been wanting to challenge 14 since its inception." 15 Do you see that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is it that you mean when you say 18 civil libertarians have been wanting to challenge? 19 What is it they have been wanting to challenge? 20 MR. GARBUS: I object. It says what 21 it says. He is not an interpreter. He 22 wrote it. 23 Go ahead. Answer the question. 24 A. Basically it's the Digital Millennium 25 Copyright Act that people such as civil 65 1 Goldstein 2 libertarians in the Electronic Frontier Foundation 3 as well as the ACLU have been wanting to challenge 4 and I believe now they are challenging it because -- 5 I am not a lawyer, but as a journalist I see 6 problems with the way it's written and with 7 basically ways it can be abused. 8 Q. What are the problems that you see? 9 A. Well, for instance, this whole thing 10 here is based on an interpretation of the DMCA, 11 which I don't think was the intention of the people 12 who wrote the DMCA. 13 Q. Which part of it? 14 A. Basically that would make someone 15 subject to lawsuits if they figure out how 16 something works. You know, it seems to me to be 17 something that's a pretty ingrained part of our 18 society where you're allowed to talk about things, 19 figure things out, spread information. We know 20 theft is wrong. We know taking something that 21 doesn't belong to you is wrong or misrepresenting 22 yourself is wrong. 23 But that's not what this is about. This 24 is about figuring out how technology works and 25 being told that that's wrong, and that's where I 66 1 Goldstein 2 have a problem with it. But again, I have to 3 stress, I am not a lawyer. I am speaking as a 4 journalist. That's my opinion on it. 5 Q. Are you involved in figuring out what 6 DeCSS means? 7 A. Well, in addition to not being a lawyer, 8 I am also not an engineer. 9 MR. GARBUS: Object to the form of the 10 question. 11 A. I know many people who are engineers and 12 I respect what they do, and I believe I defend what 13 they do in my pages. 14 Q. Who is it by name, if you can, if you 15 know who is trying to figure out what DeCSS means? 16 A. Do you mean who is trying to -- 17 MR. GARBUS: I object to form of the 18 question. I also object to all these 19 questions that call for his legal 20 conclusion. The witness is stating his 21 opinion as a journalist and not his position 22 in the lawsuit. 23 MR. GOLD: Oh, I thought you said 24 physician. 25 A. Do you mean who is trying to figure 67 1 Goldstein 2 out CSS? Because DeCSS is -- 3 Q. Who is trying to figure out CSS? Thank 4 you. You're right. 5 A. A lot of people. I mean, like I 6 mentioned the people in the Linux world. People 7 in -- I believe in the Livid project as well, 8 although they were basically trying to create a 9 Linux player. A lot of people have gotten very 10 interested in how encryption works over the years. 11 Encryption is a very important thing. 12 It's our key to privacy. It's traditional in the 13 hacker world when encryption goes back, you tell 14 people about it. Because that way the next bit of 15 encryption is a lot more secure. 16 I think also what you're seeing here, a 17 lot of people think it would be wrong not to tell 18 people when encryption doesn't work, as is the case 19 with CSS. 20 Q. In the last answer that you gave, when 21 you used the word, quote, a lot of people, what did 22 you mean? 23 A. A lot of people in the community, in the 24 Linux community. People on public forums such as 25 Slash Dot. Basically people on the Net who know 68 1 Goldstein 2 what they are talking about. People who run 3 businesses, people who are engineers, scientists, 4 you name it. 5 Q. Do you know how many? 6 A. Thousands. 7 Q. How do you know that? 8 A. I see The Post. You know, we -- we talk 9 to these people at meetings, at conferences. It's 10 a lot of people. And also a lot of people who 11 don't have knowledge that understand the 12 journalistic implications here. 13 So it's really helped us reach out to a 14 lot of people. 15 Q. In the second sentence of the same 16 paragraph you wrote the following: "It's called 17 the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and it 18 basically makes it illegal to reverse engineer 19 technology." 20 Is that your understanding? 21 A. That's my understanding based on this 22 lawsuit. 23 Q. You think that's what this lawsuit is 24 about? 25 A. It appears that way to me. Because 69 1 Goldstein 2 DeCSS was written for reverse engineering purposes. 3 So if that's found to be illegal then under the 4 DMCA. 5 Q. The next sentence says, "this means 6 you're not allowed to take things apart and figure 7 out how they work if the corporate entities 8 involved don't want you to." 9 Is that true? 10 A. That's based on my previous thought, 11 that if that is in fact proven to be the case, then 12 yes, that's how it will be decided. 13 Q. And that's what this lawsuit is about as 14 far as you know? 15 A. That's what it looks like to me, yes. 16 Q. Are there monthly 2600 meetings? 17 A. Yes. We meet on the first Friday of 18 every month in cities. In fact, if you look on 19 page 58, it's a list of all the cities we have 20 meetings in around the world. 21 Q. When say "we," who are you talking 22 about? 23 A. 2600, the magazine, a very loosely based 24 group of people that have similar ideologies on 25 things. 70 1 Goldstein 2 Q. These meetings are held where? 3 A. Various public gathering places. For 4 instance, in New York, in the lobby of Citicorp. 5 Q. Who comes to them? Subscribers to 2600? 6 A. Everyone is welcome. Basically 7 subscribers, passersby, businessmen, kids, 8 governmental agents. You name it. We get all 9 kinds of people. 10 Q. Are any minutes taken of these meetings? 11 A. No, perhaps "meeting" is the wrong word 12 in this context. "Gathering" is probably a better 13 word for your understanding. 14 There is no agenda. There is no one 15 person speaking to everybody. It is kind of -- we 16 think of it as kind of similar to what the Internet 17 world is like where everybody has an equal voice, 18 you talk to whoever you want to talk to. If you 19 want to be anonymous, you be anonymous. 20 But basically, we respect each other. 21 We don't break any laws. We basically exchange 22 information, talk, learn about things. We have 23 been having meetings since 1987. 24 Q. Would it be correct to say that 25 everybody comes to one place and sort of hangs? Is 71 1 Goldstein 2 that what you mean? 3 A. Pretty much, yeah. 4 Q. No speeches. 5 A. No. Not that I know of, anyway. 6 Q. What reverse engineering purposes was 7 DeCSS written for? 8 A. By reverse engineering CSS it became 9 possible to make DVDs playable on other operating 10 systems besides Microsoft, McIntosh, both for 11 operating systems like Linux and future operating 12 systems that have not yet been written and may not 13 have ever been written. Because if your operating 14 system can't do something basic like play a DVD, 15 it's not going to be very popular. 16 Q. How was CSS cracked? 17 A. Again, I am not an engineer. My 18 understanding is that one of the companies that was 19 licensed was -- hadn't encrypted their copy of CSS, 20 which made it possible to reverse engineer it based 21 on that. So it was basically their 22 irresponsibility that led to this. 23 Q. So is it true the fact that it was 24 cracked didn't relate to how strong or weak it was? 25 A. It still had to be figured out after 72 1 Goldstein 2 that. It was -- it probably made it easier the 3 fact that they didn't encrypt their copy of it. 4 But there's -- our basic view is that 5 any form of encryption will be eventually cracked 6 and you have to live your life realizing that and 7 always be prepared to improve your encryption. 8 Q. Is that why you say that CSS was a weak 9 system? 10 MR. GARBUS: Objection. That's not 11 what he said. 12 A. That's not -- 13 Q. I asked you a question. 14 A. That's not why I say that it's -- I 15 believe CSS was weak based on what I was told by 16 engineers. But I think it would have been -- it 17 would have been cracked whether or not that company 18 had an unencrypted copy or not. 19 Q. It would have been cracked sooner or 20 later. 21 A. Sooner or later, yes, as any encryption 22 will be. 23 Q. How long had CSS existed before one of 24 its users didn't encrypt a DVD with it? 25 MR. GARBUS: Object to the form of the 73 1 Goldstein 2 question. He already testified in '97. But 3 your question is a bad question. With all 4 due respect, Mr. Gold, I don't think you 5 understand the technology. 6 MR. GOLD: Who cares what you think? 7 Don't be impolite. I find it very 8 offensive. 9 I'll take a test with you sometime 10 after the case is over. Is that the sort of 11 competition you have in mind? 12 MR. GARBUS: Go ahead. 13 THE WITNESS: Maybe you can read back 14 the question. I got distracted. 15 (A portion of the record was read.) 16 A. CSS existed ever since DVDs were 17 released, to my understanding. 18 Q. Approximately how long? 19 A. I would say DVDs were probably released 20 I think probably around '95/'96. Again, I am not 21 entirely certain about this. But -- and also, I'm 22 presuming that the company -- I believe its name is 23 Xing, X-i-n-g, hadn't been encrypting all along, so 24 that may or may not be true, but that's my 25 understanding. 74 1 Goldstein 2 Q. So CSS was out there for four to five 3 years before it was cracked? 4 A. It may have been. Again, this is not 5 something that I am an expert in. They may have 6 been a fairly new company that had just started 7 using it and maybe they were only doing it for six 8 months. I don't know the facts in this. 9 Q. Is the fact that CSS was being used for 10 four to five years and then it was cracked in the 11 way that you've described, a reason why you say 12 that CSS is weak or was weak? 13 MR. GARBUS: I object to it. That's 14 not what he said. 15 MR. GOLD: That's why I asked him is 16 that true. 17 MR. GARBUS: You're misstating the 18 witness's testimony. 19 MR. GOLD: Would you read the question 20 back to the witness. 21 (A portion of the record was read.) 22 A. I am not certain it was being used 23 that long. And I am also not certain how long it 24 existed in an insecure state so that it could be 25 cracked quicker. I also don't know how long people 75 1 Goldstein 2 were actively trying to do this. 3 While DVDs were released several years 4 ago, DVDs on computers are a fairly new phenomenon. 5 So I don't think very many people in the Linux 6 community would be trying four years ago to crack 7 this. I think once they set their minds to the, it 8 wasn't very difficult. 9 Q. But they didn't do it without someone 10 failing to encrypt. 11 A. That helped. I don't think it would 12 have prevented things in the end. 13 Q. What do you mean by, quote, in the end? 14 A. I think it would have been -- one thing, 15 the encryption was developed in a closed 16 environment. If you want good encryption you 17 develop it in an open environment so people can 18 test it before it actually goes on the market. 19 CSS was developed so that nobody really 20 knew the equation, and thus they didn't have a 21 chance to really test it amongst the people who 22 would figure it out. So I think that was a big 23 disadvantage that they had, and that's something 24 the open source community has always supported is 25 openly developing these things. So ironically they 76 1 Goldstein 2 would have had a more secure encryption standard 3 had they consulted with these people. 4 MR. HERNSTADT: Off the record. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 MR. GOLD: I would like to have this 7 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3. 8 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3, document 9 headed "2600/News Archive, Page 1 of 2," 10 marked for identification, as of this date.) 11 Q. Is this a news story you wrote and put 12 on the 2600 web site? 13 A. Just trying to determine if this is one 14 of the ones I wrote. I definitely approved it and 15 put it on the 2600 web site. 16 Q. Well, take your time and read it and see 17 if you wrote it. 18 MR. GOLD: I don't think it's 19 appropriate to talk to the witness, 20 Mr. Garbus, in between a question and an 21 answer. 22 A. I believe this was one of Macki's. It's 23 based on the phraseology. 24 Q. Who is Macki? 25 A. Macki is our webmaster. But I read this 77 1 Goldstein 2 and approved it. 3 Q. Did you believe it true when you read 4 it? 5 A. I believed it true when I read it, yes. 6 There are a couple of technical issues here that 7 have since been proven to be inaccurate. I think 8 that goes to show that even we didn't have a 9 complete understanding of the technology at the 10 time. 11 Q. What in this article do you now believe 12 was incorrect? 13 A. There is one part here, I think it's the 14 third paragraph down, under the date, where it says 15 that this facilitated the copying of DVDs. 16 Again, it's the nature of the Net, when 17 something is released, that people don't always 18 have the complete facts. And when we researched 19 this more afterwards, and you will find this in 20 later news articles, we realized that it was not 21 about copying DVDs. We were kind of taken in at 22 the beginning too. It's not about that at all. 23 Q. What sentence were you reading from? 24 A. I am reading the first sentence in the 25 third paragraph. 78 1 Goldstein 2 Q. "As a result they were able to create 3 DeCSS -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. "-- a free DVD decoder, that not only 6 facilitated the creation of previously unavailable 7 open source DVD players for Linux -- also allowed 8 people to copies DVDs." 9 Are you now saying that any part of that 10 sentence is incorrect? 11 A. The last part of that sentence is 12 incorrect, because as we -- 13 Q. Which part? Do you mean the "also 14 allowed people to copy"? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is it a fact that the free DVD decoder 17 that you talked about at the beginning of the 18 paragraph in fact did allow people to copy DVDs? 19 A. No, the fact is that DVDs have always 20 been able to be copied. The only thing that DeCSS 21 does is allow them to be played on a different 22 platform. 23 Q. And it's your testimony that DeCSS does 24 not decrypt? 25 A. DeCSS does decrypt. It does not make it 79 1 Goldstein 2 any easier to copy. It allows you to be able to 3 view it on the platform of your choice. 4 Q. When you decrypt DVD is a copy made on 5 your hard drive? 6 A. I have never used the program. 7 Q. So you don't know. 8 A. I don't know if a copy is made on your 9 computer. I don't know anybody with the size of a 10 computer that would be able to hold an entire DVD. 11 It's an incredible -- 12 Q. So what you're saying is you don't know 13 whether or not a copy of the DVD is made when you 14 decrypt it on your hard drive. 15 A. I don't know for sure. I think it is 16 irrelevant because -- 17 Q. Before we get to the irrelevant part, 18 how can you say that no copies are made unless you 19 know that DeCSS does not put a copy on your hard 20 drive when you decrypt it? 21 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 22 the question. You're misstating the 23 witness's testimony. You are not 24 understanding the technology. I will allow 25 the witness to answer the question if he 80 1 Goldstein 2 can. 3 A. I will try to explain this. Basically 4 copying of DVDs has been going on since virtually 5 day one. When you copy a DVD, you're copying 6 something that's encrypted, and as long as you have 7 a player, the player doesn't care if it's a copy or 8 if it's the original. 9 Whether or not you copy something that 10 is unencrypted on to your hard drive or encrypted, 11 it doesn't make any difference. If DeCSS allowed 12 you to copy the unencrypted file on to your hard 13 drive, it's no different than copying the encrypted 14 file on to your hard drive, because what CSS did 15 was decrypt that. All you needed was a valid 16 player and that would allow you to view an 17 encrypted file. 18 So again, I am not -- I have never used 19 it. I don't know anybody who has used it. I don't 20 know anybody who would have the hard drive space to 21 hold an entire DVD. But even if it was possible, 22 and I stress "if," it wouldn't make a difference 23 because you can still play an encrypted DVD using a 24 valid CSS player as has been done for years. 25 Q. But you've got to first decrypt the DVD. 81 1 Goldstein 2 A. CSS decrypts the DVD. 3 Q. Do you believe that that's true? 4 A. Yes, that's the purpose of it. It's in 5 every DVD player, whether it's on an operating 6 system, whether it's a stand alone unit, the copy 7 of CSS that's in there is what decrypts the DVD. 8 And that's why I say that if you make a 9 bit by bit copy of an illegal DVD like, say, from 10 Asia or something like that, as has been done for 11 years, it's not going to know the difference. It 12 will see the encryption and decrypt it whether it's 13 a copy or the original. 14 And that's why I say it's irrelevant 15 whether or not -- whether or not you have an 16 unencrypted copy on your hard drive, because you 17 can still just as easily, even easier in fact, 18 decrypt an encrypted copy. 19 Q. So then I take it you don't know one way 20 or the other whether when you decrypt a DVD a copy 21 is put on the hard drive. 22 A. I don't know since I have never done it. 23 Q. Now, at the end of that same paragraph 24 there's a reference to, quote, antiquated 25 encryption export laws, close quote. 82 1 Goldstein 2 What does that mean? 3 A. I believe that refers to the fact that 4 there are strict limitations on encryption that we 5 export from this country, and because DVDs are 6 exported overseas, an artificially weak encryption 7 was used. 8 Q. Because of this law? 9 A. Because of a law. I am not sure which 10 law it is, that considers encryption an armament 11 and basically forced them to encrypt in a rather 12 weak state. Something I don't think anybody who 13 knew what they were doing would be happy with. And 14 that of course led to it being cracked a lot 15 earlier. 16 Q. On the same document, sir, the last 17 sentence on page 1, begins, quote, That is why we 18 feel it's necessary to preserve this information, 19 period. We do feel sympathy for the DVD industry 20 now that their encryption has been cracked. 21 Perhaps they will learn from this, close quote. 22 What learning did you have in mind? 23 A. Well, it was our hope that they would go 24 on and come up with a better way of encrypting DVDs 25 and learn from the mistakes they made and not 83 1 Goldstein 2 continue to go after people. And though I should 3 stress that this article is before any papers were 4 filed against us. Obviously they didn't follow 5 that. 6 Q. So do you feel or do you believe that 7 part of the use of DeCSS is to teach the movie 8 companies that they have got to make tougher 9 protective devices around their copyrighted work? 10 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 11 the question. 12 A. I don't think anyone went out and said 13 let's teach them a lesson. I think basically this 14 is something that happened in the natural course of 15 things, and I think it's an opportunity to learn 16 that's being wasted. 17 Q. Is the export law you talked about in 18 the preceding paragraph still in effect? 19 MR. GARBUS: I will object to.... 20 A. Again, I didn't write this article and I 21 am not an expert on law, but I do recall hearing 22 sometime in the recent past that Clinton relaxed 23 some export regulations. 24 Q. And that may or may not be one of them. 25 A. It might be. 84 1 Goldstein 2 Q. I see. 3 Do you consider yourself a hacker? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you or any other hacker you know -- 6 MR. GARBUS: I object to the question. 7 The way he defines hacker. 8 A. The way I define hacker obviously. 9 MR. GARBUS: In other words, the way 10 he's defined hacker he considers himself a 11 hacker. 12 MR. GOLD: Which shows that you were 13 listening. 14 Q. Did you or any other hacker contact the 15 movie industry or Matsushita for the DVD CCA to 16 discuss the findings of the DeCSS creators? 17 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 18 the question. 19 Q. The question was did you or any other 20 hacker you know of contact the movie industry or 21 Matsushita or the DVD CCA to discuss the findings 22 of the DeCSS creators? 23 MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of 24 the question. If the witness can answer I 25 will let him answer. 85 1 Goldstein 2 A. Back when this happened, which was early 3 November of 1999, I had never even heard of the DVD 4 CCA, so contacting them wouldn't have even come to 5 mind. 6 We were reporting this as journalists. 7 We were reporting facts. The facts were this was -- 8 this happened, this was cracked. And that's what 9 we printed on our pages, that it was cracked. 10 Q. But if a purpose of the cracking was to 11 teach them that they had to make a stronger 12 protective mechanism to protect their copyrighted 13 work, why wouldn't you or someone else involved 14 with DeCSS call them and tell them that? 15 A. I imagine they were contacted. 16 MR. GARBUS: I will object to the form 17 of the question. The New York Times printed 18 it. The San Jose Mercury News printed it. 19 To my knowledge no newspaper reported it. 20 That's not his function. Object to the form 21 of the question. 22 MR. GOLD: Read the question and let 23 the witness answer it. 24 (A portion of the record was read.) 25 A. I believe I said I mentioned they were 86 1 Goldstein 2 contacted at the time. 3 Q. By whom? 4 A. By, well, at this point it was pretty 5 widely reported throughout the Internet. So for 6 them not to know about it I think would be very 7 unusual. 8 Again, we were reporting something that 9 happened. It wasn't our place to go around and 10 make sure that everybody knew about it. It was a 11 fact. We were reporting it. We weren't involved 12 at that point. It was just something interesting 13 that we were following. 14 Q. At the beginning of the deposition or 15 maybe before it started I asked you which name that 16 you would be comfortable that I used, and I think 17 you told me Emmanuel Goldstein. 18 A. As you said, either name is fine. 19 Emmanuel is the name I am known by by most people. 20 Q. What is your legal name? 21 A. Eric Corley is what I was born with. 22 Q. And you never officially changed it. 23 A. No, that's still my legal name. 24 MR. GOLD: I gather there is no 25 objection here with respect to the fact that 87 1 Goldstein 2 he wasn't sworn as Mr. Corley. He was sworn 3 as Mr. Goldstein. 4 MR. GARBUS: That's fine. 5 Q. Were you raised in New York? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Which high school did you go to? 8 A. Ward Melville High School in East 9 Setauket, New York. 10 Q. Did you attend college? 11 A. Yes, State University of New York at 12 Stony Brook. 13 Q. What did you major in? 14 A. I was an English major. 15 Q. Did you attend school after you 16 graduated? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. Did you graduate? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did there come a time you began working? 21 A. Yes, I worked in numerous capacities for 22 newspapers and.... 23 Q. Which newspapers, and to the best you 24 can, what dates? 25 A. Well, I worked for a newspaper on campus 88 1 Goldstein 2 known as the Stony Brook Press both as an unpaid 3 writer and a paid typesetter, and then I continued 4 working as a typesetter for a local community paper 5 known as the Village Times. And that's when I 6 began publishing my own publication as well. 7 And the rest is pretty much history. 8 Q. Do you receive remuneration from 2600? 9 A. Yes, that's my full-time job now. 10 Q. Is that your sole source of 11 remuneration? 12 A. Right now, yes. 13 Q. Is it correct that the Village Times and 14 then your own publication are the two jobs you had 15 since graduating? 16 A. Going back a long ways, so -- I believe 17 so. I believe that's where I was working right 18 after graduation. I mean, I had part-time jobs 19 before then, but as far as I know, that's -- yeah, 20 that's what I had afterwards. 21 Q. And your home address is what? 22 A. 7 Strongs Lane. That's S-t-r-o-n-g-s. 23 Also Setauket. 24 Q. And I gather your business address is in 25 the magazine somewhere? 89 1 Goldstein 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In this 2600 Hack Reporter? 4 A. Yes, on page 3, I think. 5 Q. When was 2600 Enterprises Inc. 6 incorporated? 7 A. To the best of my recollection, in 1984. 8 I don't have the specific date. 9 Q. And it was incorporated in New York? 10 A. In New York, yes. 11 Q. Who are its directors at present? 12 A. I am the sole provider. 13 Q. There is no board of directors? 14 A. No, there is none. 15 Q. Are you the only officer? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Does 2600 Enterprises Inc. have any 18 employees? 19 A. We have an office, an office person who 20 enters subscriptions. And anything else is 21 strictly on a per job basis such as if we hire an 22 artist to design a T-shirt, if we pay a printer to 23 print the magazine. 24 Q. Have you had the same printer for 25 several years? 90 1 Goldstein 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is that? 4 A. Portside Graphics in Port Jefferson, 5 New York. 6 Q. What is the name of your office person? 7 A. Her name is Mary, last name Nixdorf, 8 N-i-x-d-o-r-f. 9 Q. Does 2600 have any function other than 10 issuing 2600, The Hacker Quarterly? 11 A. We publish a magazine. That's what we 12 do. Things happen along the way, such as having 13 2600 meetings, but the magazine is really what we 14 do. 15 Even the web site is something that just 16 evolved. As a result, we make no money off the web 17 site. It's just a project that a bunch of people 18 engage in because they want to become involved in 19 that part of technology. 20 Q. Are there other web sites around the 21 country that are affiliated with you? 22 A. The only web site affiliated with us is 23 our web site and one for the upcoming conference 24 known as h2k.net. It is on the same machine. So 25 it's really the same thing. 91 1 Goldstein 2 Q. Is The Hacker Quarterly put in its 3 entirety on your web site? 4 A. No. The web site is a supplement of the 5 magazine. It's not a duplication of the magazine. 6 Q. Each quarter do you put selected 7 portions of The Hacker Quarterly on your web site? 8 A. I would like to, but unfortunately we 9 don't have the staff to sit around scanning and 10 posting. So right now, no. We would like to in 11 the future. 12 Q. So is it rare that you ever put anything 13 that's in The Hacker Quarterly on your web site? 14 MR. GARBUS: Object to the use of the 15 word "rare." 16 A. I don't think we ever duplicate anything 17 other than the covers on the web site. Not to my 18 recollection. 19 Q. Except in this lawsuit, have you or 2600 20 ever been accused of violating anyone's rights in 21 connection with a hack or in connection with the 22 material that you published? Other than this 1984 23 thing that you testified. 24 A. Do you mean have we gotten letters 25 saying that -- threatening letters from lawyers or 92 1 Goldstein 2 have we actually been brought up on charges? 3 Q. Have you actually been brought up on 4 charges? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Have you gotten threatening letters from 7 lawyers? 8 A. We have gotten a few on occasion. 9 Q. How did you get them? 10 A. They were sent to us in the mail. 11 Q. Do they exist now? 12 A. I am not sure what you mean, do they 13 exist now? 14 Q. Do the letters exist now? 15 A. They might be filed someplace. I don't 16 think I could ever find them. We usually print 17 them. So you can find them in the magazine. But 18 nothing up until this point has ever gotten past 19 the first step of a nasty letter being sent. 20 Q. How many issues of this magazine have 21 been published? 22 A. Well, we have been coming out for I 23 guess eighteen years -- well, no. This is Volume 24 17. So seventeen years. So -- 25 Q. Seventeen times four would be the 93 1 Goldstein 2 answer? 3 A. We have been quarterly since 1988. 4 Before then we were monthly. So you'll need a 5 calculator. 6 Q. And is it your testimony that you 7 published all these threatening letters from 8 lawyers in one of these issues? 9 A. If we got a letter that was -- we 10 thought was particularly unjust, yes, it's been our 11 policy to show people the kinds of threats that are 12 being made against us. 13 RQ MR. GOLD: I am going to ask for copies 14 of all back issues of 2600 and any of the 15 lawyer letters that Mr. Goldstein might have 16 around his office or in his files. 17 MR. GARBUS: I will see what we have. 18 MR. HERNSTADT: Can I just clarify? 19 Do you want all back issues that have lawyer 20 letters published? 21 MR. GOLD: No. 22 MR. GARBUS: He wants all back issues 23 and any letters that we have. 24 Is that right, Mr. Gold? 25 MR. GOLD: That's right. 94 1 Goldstein 2 MR. HERNSTADT: We'll take it under 3 advisement. 4 MR. GOLD: Can I have this marked as 5 Exhibit 4. 6 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4, copy of 7 plaintiffs' first request for production of 8 documents, marked for identification, as of 9 this date.) 10 MR. GOLD: You can take a minute to 11 look through that. I guess we'll change the 12 tape while he is looking. 13 MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold, I don't know 14 your schedule. As I said, we would be 15 prepared to work through lunch. Because I 16 know you want to finish the deposition. We 17 would also be prepared working till 5. 18 Again, subject to your convenience. Or even 19 work later in the evening to try and give 20 you as much as you can get. 21 MR. GOLD: As you know, we have 22 advised you that the deposition would be 23 today and tomorrow. I think we'll finish 24 tomorrow. I doubt we'll finish today and I 25 do feel that the judge having called a 95 1 Goldstein 2 conference and been kind enough to put it at 3 the end of the day that I should attend it, 4 since I have been involved in writing a few 5 letters to him. And I think the judge might 6 be interested in talking about one or more 7 of them. I think it would be improper for 8 me not to be there. 9 MR. GARBUS: Do you want to have 10 somebody else take over the deposition? 11 MR. GOLD: No, I will stick with what 12 I noticed for today and tomorrow and trust 13 that I'll finish tomorrow. 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:28 15 p.m. This completes tape number 1 of the 16 videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 17 Goldstein. 18 (A recess was taken.) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The 12:34 p.m. 20 This begins tape number 2 of the videotape 21 deposition of Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein. 22 (Mr. Hernstadt not present.) 23 BY MR. GOLD: 24 Q. Mr. Goldstein, have you seen the 25 document just put before you before today? 96 1 Goldstein 2 A. Yes, I have. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A. I believe it was two weeks ago. 5 Q. Did you understand at that time two 6 weeks ago that it called for the production of 7 documents? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did you make any search for the 10 documents requested? 11 A. Oh, yes. 12 Q. Tell us everything you did to search for 13 the documents requested. 14 A. Well, I searched through a pile of 15 papers in the attic and tried to find as much as I 16 could, contacted my accountant, got together back 17 issues you requested. 18 I think that pretty much covers 19 everything. I also searched the computer system 20 that I am on for any E-mail that may have been 21 there or any logs. 22 Q. Did you throw away or dispose of or take 23 out of your hard drive any documents at all from 24 the time you saw this particular document? 25 A. No. 97 1 Goldstein 2 Q. Did you find anything? 3 A. My webmaster found a couple of logs. I 4 believe he forwarded them to our legal team. 5 As far as on the computer system, I 6 searched, I grepped for DeCSS through my E-mail for 7 anything having to do with DeCSS or DVDs. And 8 there was nothing there. 9 I assume anything I get in the future I 10 am supposed to forward. 11 Q. The documents you found you gave to your 12 counsel? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. GOLD: Mr. Garbus, do you know if 15 those have been supplied to this office? 16 MR. GARBUS: I don't know. I presume 17 Mr. Hernstadt gave you whatever Mr. Goldstein 18 gave him. 19 MS. MILLER: No, we haven't received 20 any documents from -- 21 MR. GARBUS: Then I will find out. It 22 came at a bad time. Hernstadt's gone. 23 Whatever Mr. Goldstein gave us that is 24 appropriate we'll certainly give you. 25 Q. Mr. Goldstein, when did you give these 98 1 Goldstein 2 documents to your lawyer? 3 A. I know my financial records arrived last 4 week from my accountant. As far as the things from 5 the web site, I know our webmaster has been in 6 touch with Marty and Ed, our legal team, on that. 7 And as far as anything else, I don't think there 8 was anything else that I can recall. 9 MR. GARBUS: I had understood we had 10 furnished you with approximately two to 300 11 pages of information that is similar to the 12 information that had been in Mr. Goldstein's 13 affidavit on the motion. I had understood 14 it was going to be sent to you by separate 15 letter. We can check that with Mr. Hernstadt. 16 MS. MILLER: OK, because as of last 17 night no one in this office on the team had 18 received any documents. But I appreciate 19 your checking. 20 MR. GARBUS: OK. 21 Q. Mr. Goldstein, do you know any reason 22 why your attorneys wouldn't have turned these over 23 before today? 24 A. I know that my accountant had been away 25 and hadn't gotten my message until last week, so he 99 1 Goldstein 2 wasn't able to FedEx the documents until late last 3 week. So that might be a reason for that. 4 Also, I brought in the back issues you 5 requested. I brought those in today actually. So 6 that's my fault. 7 Q. Turning to page 7, number 1, what 8 documents do you know exist relating in any way to 9 the 2600 dot-com site? 10 A. I am not sure exactly what documents you 11 had in mind. Again, it was something our webmaster 12 was dealing with. 13 As far as documents that are on the 14 site, we're prepared to give you an entire snapshot 15 of the site, which would be every page that is 16 there. 17 Q. And that would include pages relating to 18 what issues? 19 A. Well, the site is not having to do with 20 the issues. The site is the web site. That would 21 include all these articles ever written on the 22 site. That would include -- well, it couldn't 23 include the radio shows that we have up there 24 because that's an audio format. So I don't know 25 how that would work. 100 1 Goldstein 2 Basically a lot documents relating to 3 this case, a lot of documents not relating to this 4 case. If that's what you want, we can furnish you 5 with those as well. 6 Q. When you saw this document and didn't 7 understand what it meant to ask for all documents 8 concerning the 2600 dot-com site, did you put in a 9 call to your lawyers? 10 A. Yes, I talked to my lawyers. I also 11 talked to my webmaster and told them to work it 12 out. 13 Q. Did your lawyers tell you what it meant? 14 A. I believe so. I believe it was -- 15 MR. GARBUS: I will object to any 16 conversations between Mr. Goldstein and his 17 lawyers. 18 MR. GOLD: I don't know that this is -- 19 instructions on how he was to make the 20 search I think are not privileged. 21 MR. GARBUS: I think the judge should 22 rule on it. 23 MR. GOLD: You don't know that rule. 24 MR. GARBUS: I think the judge should 25 rule on it. I think we may disagree as to 101 1 Goldstein 2 those conversations. 3 MR. GOLD: Are you saying that those 4 are privileged? 5 MR. GARBUS: I am saying if it was a 6 conversation about documents, then some of 7 it may be privileged. Some of it which is 8 just functional may not be privileged. But 9 there may be privileged conversations within 10 that. I would exert the privilege and then 11 you can get a ruling. 12 MR. GOLD: I am just trying to find 13 out what the witness was told about what 14 documents to produce. 15 MR. GARBUS: I presume he was told to 16 produce everything he could. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, everything I could 18 on the web site. Except there is one big 19 omission. You say all files made available 20 for download from October 1, 1999. You 21 realize we can't give you DeCSS because 22 that's no longer on our site. 23 Q. You say that when you didn't understand 24 what you were to look for with respect to number 1, 25 you called your lawyers. 102 1 Goldstein 2 A. I don't know if I said I didn't 3 understand. Just that I wanted to make sure that I 4 understood correctly that it was basically a 5 snapshot of the entire -- the entire system, which 6 is no problem at all. 7 Q. Did you give that to your lawyers? 8 A. Again, that's something our webmaster 9 would do because he has much better technical 10 knowledge. 11 MR. GARBUS: The webmaster I presume 12 was told to do it or ask for it. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 Q. When did you tell your webmaster to 15 produce those documents? 16 A. That was shortly after I got this 17 document. 18 Q. Where are they or have they been 19 produced to your lawyers? 20 A. As far as I know, they have been 21 produced. 22 Q. Those are the approximately 300 pages 23 that you were -- 24 A. I don't know if it's 300 pages. It's a 25 lot of pages. I am not sure exactly how many. 103 1 Goldstein 2 Q. I see. So did your lawyer define for 3 you what number 1 -- 4 MR. GARBUS: You'll get everything 5 that -- 6 MR. GOLD: We're waiting, we're 7 waiting, we're waiting. 8 MR. GARBUS: -- that he can download. 9 MR. GOLD: We gave you over 10,000 10 documents and you complain it isn't enough 11 even though you haven't read a tenth of them 12 and we asked you for a couple of documents 13 and they are not here. 14 MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold, you have made 15 your record. 16 MR. GOLD: What does that mean? 17 MR. GARBUS: My understanding is 18 that -- 19 MR. GOLD: I know what your 20 understanding is and I know what you do. 21 MR. GARBUS: Good, so let's move on. 22 BY MR. GOLD: 23 Q. Did your lawyer give you any description 24 of what you should produce with respect to item 25 number 1? 104 1 Goldstein 2 A. I think I already understood what I had 3 to produce. 4 Q. Then why would you have called him to 5 ask him what it means? 6 A. To clarify that I understood correctly. 7 Q. Did you do that with number 2? 8 A. Number 2? 9 Q. Did you clarify what your understanding 10 of what number 2 was? 11 A. Well, number 2 is documents that grant 12 us the right to copy motion pictures, and I know we 13 don't have documents that tell us we can copy 14 motion pictures. So -- 15 Q. So you knew what number 2 was and you 16 didn't have to ask; is that right? 17 A. Well, it's pretty obvious those 18 documents didn't exist. 19 Q. When you knew what 1 meant, and since 20 you knew what it meant, why did you have to ask 21 about it? 22 A. To clarify it, to make sure that -- you 23 wanted a copy of everything on the site and that's 24 what we were going to do, and I was going to ask 25 the webmaster to provide you with that. 105 1 Goldstein 2 You should understand the people on our 3 site are basically in school and sometimes they are 4 not easily reachable. 5 We have tried as hard as we can to get 6 these documents, and we wanted to be thorough. We 7 wanted to make sure we didn't just give you a 8 couple of things. We wanted to make sure you got 9 what you were asking for. 10 Q. So does that mean with respect to number 11 1 you have not yet finished contacting all the 12 people you want to contact? 13 A. There's one person and I contacted that 14 person, that's our webmaster. 15 Q. What about all these people you just 16 referred to who work after school? 17 A. I am saying people who I am in contact 18 with, and the webmaster is one of them, they don't 19 have full-time jobs with our site. So I have to 20 find where they are. I have to E-mail them. It 21 might be a couple of days before they get back to 22 me sometimes, but it is our intention to get you 23 every document you asked for. 24 Q. Have you already done that? 25 A. As far as I know, that has already been 106 1 Goldstein 2 submitted. As far as I know. 3 Q. To? 4 A. It's -- I believe it's been E-mailed 5 over to the legal team. 6 Q. Your legal team. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who is on your legal team other than 9 Mr. Garbus and Mr. Hernstadt? 10 A. Those are the two names I know. I know 11 there are more people working on the case. 12 Q. Is it true that 3 would have been a part 13 of number 1, that you have already produced? 14 A. Yes. That's something that I would have 15 immediate control over because you were asking 16 within my possession, and so I did that, that 17 search on my system where I get my E-mail. 18 Q. It would relate to you or the company, I 19 gather. 20 A. Right. 21 Q. And you searched for any possible 22 documents -- 23 A. I searched throughout my E-mail. 24 Q. -- that belong to the company. 25 A. If you mean did I search other people's 107 1 Goldstein 2 E-mail, that doesn't belong to the company. 3 Q. What does the word "other people" mean 4 in that? 5 A. The system, 2600 dot-com, is what's 6 known as shell machine. It is used by people who 7 write articles for the magazine. It is used by 8 people who are affiliated one way or another, 9 whether they, you know, they do covers, they're 10 artists, they're writers. They help us out in some 11 way technically. And they each have an account on 12 the machine and they receive E-mail there. They 13 have their files this. 14 And it is not our position to claim 15 ownership over those files, over that E-mail. I 16 know many companies do c